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Peter: Hello and welcome to Episode 11 of the Corporate Digital Marketing Podcast. I’m your host Peter Applebaum and today we’re going to be speaking to Kristin from eBay. Kristin is the Senior Product Manager from eBay and we’ll hear later in the episode what exactly that means and what she does. She has a fantastic background in the Australian digital industry having worked at LinkedIn for some years and also Zenith Optimedia, a media agency.

She has some really interesting insights and probably different types of opinions to the ones we’ve seen from other guests we’ve had previously and I think that’s good.

Actually, one of the things we spoke about when I first suggested that Kristin comes on the show is she said I’m not in marketing anymore Peter, I’m in product development, product management. I said, Kristin, given the background that you have that’s exactly the sort of role that I think listeners will be interested in finding out more about particularly with an organization like eBay.

Peter: Welcome Kristin. I’ve known Kristin for some time and I’ve been following her career with great interest because amazingly I spoke to her about joining Tick Yes but she chose to work for this other small organisation called LinkedIn. And she has gone from strength to strength ever since so I was very excited to speak to Kristin about her experiences at LinkedIn and also now at eBay. She also informed me that she’s not in digital marketing which is going to make it an interesting conversation. Could you tell us a little bit more about your role now Kristin?

Kristin: Yes. I’m in product management at the moment and it’s something that I’ve always been interested in and it’s not something I knew what I was actually looking at or looking for when I started down this journey. Much of it was actually while I was in Zenith and quite often the questions I was asking our publishers at that time was like why couldn’t the product just do this. And sometimes the feedback I got from some of the international publishers were the people you want to speak to is not us. There are actually people that sit in our head office who actually build the products and that piqued my interest as to what is this role and what do these people do. And during my time at LinkedIn I got the opportunity to work with our product team and that’s when I discovered and learned about this concept of product management and that’s really why I’m here at eBay doing product management.

Peter: I actually think a lot of people would think when you say a product they think about physical products.

Kristin: True, that is also a part of it so that’s a fairly safe assumption. In the digital space it is everything like the website you would look at. Going onto your Facebook for example, for the newsfeed there will be a product manager that will be looking at the newsfeed alone and that is just one of the concepts of a product manager. And if you look at the newsfeed there is all these different buttons and different things that you can click on and there are different product managers that will look after each of those sections. So the concept of product management is thinking of it as the owner of a particular section or owner of the site and what they can do to ensure that the users make the most out of it.

Peter: So what does that mean from an eBay point of view for you? What is your product?

Kristin: So my product is actually the selling site so I ensure that when sellers come onto our site – whether they’re a consumer or a business type seller that they make the most out of it or get the most out of our platform.

Peter: As I mentioned in the intro, you have quite an extensive digital marketing background. And also I guess an account management business development background as well at LinkedIn in particular. How has that helped you in your current role?

Kristin: Much of it is really skills development and I think that’s something we sometimes forget and we are so focused on the role or the title; the skills development part is where my previous experiences have really led me to here today. When I was on the agency side, a lot of what we had to do in digital advertising at that time was really having to pitch digital so you really learn like the sales skill set but you also learn how to weave in a conversation about what the marketer that you were speaking to understood and try to bridge that gap with the digital concept as well because quite often you were speaking to marketers who didn’t really understand the concept of digital and you had to speak their language.

So you translate those kinds of skills and make it a little bit more approachable for them so they can digest what the concept of digital is for someone who really is so familiar with TV advertising or print advertising so you know you bridge that gap. Focusing on those skills and that kind of development really helped me to where I am here today. And even while I was at LinkedIn it was something that someone I worked with actually really helped me understand. You have your role and that’s your core of what you’re doing. But quite often there is all these grey areas around it that could make it part of your role. And that was actually how I ended up sort of working with our product team in different capacity.

It’s not necessarily something that was hard-coded into my role but it was something that I was quite passionate about. I was, OK if only they could hear a little bit more from Australia about how our Australian customers were doing and what they wanted to hear from our product and feed that into the team and how that can actually help other people; and that’s really how it started working as well.

So whenever I had the opportunity to work with our product team in any capacity I would take it up because it means a voice at the table but also being able to meet to be part of that process of what was going on. So I know I didn’t quite answer your question, I’m just going quite broad but don’t focus only on the core of what you’re doing. Try and see what is in that grey area that you can really make it as part of your core. And my role at LinkedIn evolved a lot and it enabled like hey, this kind of looks interesting and I expanded my role and made sure that I brought that into it as well. So, that’s how you can also start to think about how your skills develop and think about not just limiting it to what you’re doing at the moment but how you can translate what you’re doing into other areas and other industries.

And for example, sales skills which is why I really got to finesse when I was at LinkedIn, it wasn’t something that I thought I really wanted to have but it’s a great skill set whether you’re going to be in any industry because regardless of what you’re doing you always have to sell yourself. Learning the sales acumen is also something that I would encourage people to have whether it’s going to be a short term thing or a long term thing it’s not a bad skill to have.

Peter: So, obviously marketing has evolved quite a deal since this digital thing came along some time ago. And I think what you’ve just described is a perfect background for a lot of marketers particularly young marketers who are starting out and who are interested in where is the growth trajectory for my career. You mentioned sales, and I’m a big fan of sales with my background also as pure marketer on the client side but I think if you know sales you are bullet-proof. So how do you think that translates for a young assistant brand manager or even a product manager who’s listening to this and saying yeah, but I’ve never really done any selling, Kristin, how does that work for me?

Kristin: Yeah, I know and there’s actually a very good book I would recommend for people to read if they can and it talks about the different salespeople. I’ll need to get the name.

Peter: Please. Then we can include a link to Amazon.

Kristin: It talks about different types of sales. Actually it’s called The Challenger Sale. That’s it. So what they’ve done is they analyse salespeople throughout the year and what they found was there were different types of salespeople. And the reason I see is whether you consciously know it or unconsciously know it, you actually have to sell in every role that you do. Even as a brand marketer you’re starting out you have to pitch your idea to your manager and that is some form of selling. So being able to understand that selling actually is in every part of our day to day and I don’t want it to be a taboo word. I think quite often when you think of sales you always think of a typical sales person or you have stereotypes that you bring to that role. But there is such a variety of sales people and reading that book The Challenger Sale shows, interesting enough that concept of the challenger sale was a type of sales person that could last whether the economy was great or not so great because they were able to actually help educate the customer about what it was they were trying to sell. So they were not blatantly selling. They were more help selling or solutions selling.

Peter: For many years I’ve been a big believer that the best person or the best professional to be in life is a marketing oriented salesperson. Yet being just a sales oriented sales person means you’re missing out on understanding what your customers really want, what their fears, needs and wants and desires are. Being a marketer is wonderful as I say my love and passion has always been marketing. But the more I get to know about marketing is exactly what you’re saying Kristin it’s like sales is so fundamental, too. Back in the old days long before you started your career a lot of people would say oh those damn sales people, they’ve got no idea. And they’re just out there they’re cutting the price. They don’t care about the brand, whereas for a smart salesperson the brand is central to what they’re selling. The value that a brand can offer a consumer, whatever type of customer it is, it is critical to being able to satisfactorily meet needs.

Kristin: Exactly. And you know I’ve been lucky during my time at LinkedIn that I got to work with so many different salespeople but also being exposed to some of the great salespeople around the world which get celebrated and you want to learn from these people. People always say that sales is limited to extroverts and actually some of the most successful people I know are introverts and they’re not necessarily the loudest people in the room but they’re also also very deliberate with what they say and they’re also very conscientious about what they say to their customers or even their colleagues. I think that demystified a lot of things when I discovered this many many years ago and it opened up my eyes about what the concept of sales is. And to be honest I am grateful for having had to be exposed to the sales environment because it definitely taught me things that will be lifelong skills.

Peter: In the old days, where someone like a new marketing graduate wanted to join a marketing department, many organisations would put them in the sales team for six months or 12 months. Purgatory to some. I actually think that is a wonderful way to go. And in traditional companies the trade marketing manager or the trade marketing department I think is a wonderful place because it straddles sales and marketing. Do you have a modern day equivalent or a current equivalent at eBay or at LinkedIn?

Kristin: Well, even in my time here we’ve got a huge marketing team. By the time at LinkedIn we still had concepts of trade marketing and that’s what they would define themselves as trade marketing. But they would do marketing for the different departments as well. So I don’t think the concept has really changed too much and obviously there’s more that is built into that role nowadays or is expected of the role nowadays but there are still fundamentals which are still the same.

Peter: We’ve talked a lot about selling and marketing and what the differences are and how they should be merged if you will or they really always were. How does that translate into a digital context?

Kristin: Yeah, I think that’s a really good question and it’s something that I think a lot of departments are still trying to figure out. I think what has happened is sales and marketing used to be one department many years ago and then they split up into two different departments run by two different heads of. But what you’re starting to see nowadays is that this convergence is coming back together again. There’s a lot more alignment in it with those two departments.

During my time at LinkedIn I remember seeing a lot the big organisations that are going through that trend. And I think the good thing about small organisations is that they’re a little bit more nimble and they can actually make that happen a lot quicker. But you do see that a marketing team also asking the sales people for more accountability of what’s actually being put up there. So increasingly in the concept of the digital world you are going to see a lot more accountability coming from both departments and the need for the two departments to actually really work together a lot closer because really the everyday marketer’s job is only going to be as efficient as what the salesperson also brings in. So there definitely needs to be the two working together a lot closer. And as measurement gets better as you have new technologies are brought out there you want the two to be able to be united and bring together more cohesive measurement methods for them.

Peter: Right. We’ve spoken a lot about the corporate side of things which I guess is appropriate given the name of this podcast. But let’s talk about the customers, the people at the other end of the screen, at the other end of the smartphone as to what are the benefits. What is the added value for them as a result of this convergence that you’ve been talking about?

Kristin: That’s a good one. What it also then brings on to you is a marketer who is going to be putting a message out there for the salesperson to also then speak to that same customer. It increases personalisation a lot more and more effective. So you’re having a conversation with the customer and they’ve already been exposed to what the brand messaging is. And then when the salesperson speaks to them it’s just closing the loop and tying it just finalising a thing you get that increased personalization as to what it is. But you also have the effectiveness that is consistency with what the message is going to be put out there but also that the salesperson is also having a thorough conversation and really being able to bridge that gap and understanding the organisational needs of how the solution is actually going to be beneficial to the organisation that they’re speaking to.

So I think that personalisation piece is also quite key. As an end consumer or end seller the customer that you’re talking to is so pressed for time and if there’s efficiencies that can be made prior to someone having the initial conversations then I think that’s also going to be beneficial or timesaving because there’s just so much out there that sometimes it’s hard to know what is and what isn’t right and everyone says that their product is always going to be better than the next competitor but we never really know because everyone is selling you the best.

Peter: Of course. I guess what you’re talking about is really CX. That’s that’s the latest trend, customer experience and everyone’s talking about it. It puts a whole lot of variables around it and it really comes back to understanding what your customers need and giving it to them.

Kristin: And then I think that also goes into a trend which I think will be coming out a lot more and you hear it a lot. It’s automation, right. And anything that can help simplify it because it can be a very manual process and I have gone through mapping it out with customers before. When they’re exposed to this message this is what you learn and this is therefore what the sales person should be having the conversation. You can really control all that because you could say the salesperson may speak to them first but then they get exposed to your marketing message and then it messes up the whole stream.

Peter: Particularly if they’re not aligned.

Kristin: Exactly. So you want to have some some sort of automation available in order to help that process and help you streamline some of the processes where it makes sense.

Peter: Automation is a very common theme that is spoken about by a lot of the guests who’ve been on the podcast so far. I would put a big ‘but’ in that conversation and suggest to you, automation is wonderful but it can’t and won’t be able to interpret successfully 100 percent the human factor.

Kristin: Of course, and that’s the big part about what artificial intelligence is trying to do. And at the same time I think that also then goes back to what marketers will be required to do in the future where the skill set changes a little bit more from what you would have be trained from at school. So at school you’ll learn the marketing fundamentals and things like that and that probably will not go away. But in the automation world you’re probably going to have to do a little bit more of analysing and being able to understand the skill sets around data analysis and it’s something that we’ve seen a trend where they try to hire a lot more data scientists type roles or two marketing organisations. But that is not a bad skillset for a marketer to complement themselves with. And I think that will also be a trend that you will see a lot more in as well.

Peter: So you’re saying as a marketer we need to be data scientists?

Kristin: To some extent. In order to have an effective conversation with data scientists in the future you need to understand the fundamentals of it. So being able to say I’m starting to see this trend at the data point. What can get into? And for the data scientist then translate that into something more meaningful. I think we do need some fundamentals to change.

Peter: OK Kristin, you’ve messed with my mind enough and here I am starting out of my marketing career and you want me to be a data scientist, a sales person and marketer. My goodness, where does it end?

So practically speaking because obviously you’ve traversed quite a few areas in your career, what course would you suggest a marketer does? Like I’ve just got my B Com in marketing and I’m thinking I’m pretty special and I know all about this and I’m on Instagram and Snapchat and LinkedIn and Facebook all the time so I’ve got this digital thing, I got it covered. What do you as an experienced digital professional in marketing and sales professional recommend?

Kristin: I don’t know where to start because frankly I think if I look back there is no straight line to success or to get you to where you want to be. I think what you need to identify very early on is what you’re interested in.

So, if you say you want to focus on digital marketing that’s fine but be quick to understand as well what other skills that complement that. So if it’s sales, spend a couple of years developing that skill set and once you think that you understood the fundamentals focus on another skill set. And I think that’s how I’ve transitioned from one company to another company but also roles to roles that actually helped me transform into the next position. So it’s not necessarily about trying to master everything at one go because you have – let’s face it – we’ve got about 30 years under our belt to work.

Peter: Some of us Kristin, some of us…

Kristin: You know we worked for a very long time and you don’t want to say that the thing that you learn in day one is the same thing you’re learning 20 or 30 years down the track. You want to evolve that conversation a lot more. And you know focus on one thing first and try not to master. You don’t have to master everything but be open to what else can be out there. And you know digital trends happen and I can’t say in five years this is what’s going to be because the next Snapchat might come and go, the next Twitter might come and go but you may have something that I can’t even tell you the name of that will come and be open to what will come and try not to resist it. Be open to what you can learn from it. Try to test it if possible. And you’ve had Christophe on your show.

Peter: From L’Orèal. He was wonderful, so much information.

Kristin: He was also someone who was my manager actually. One thing I learned from him was the fact that you can’t just make an assumption on something without actually testing it. And he was always a big advocate for testing and learning. And the only way to really test is to have a meaningful insight is to test it. And we did that. And that’s something I’ve always taken with me so always try something new. And the same thing I would say with your career is to try something before you actually make it up. Call about whether you like it or not.

Peter: Test and measure, test and measure. I think one thing is, and this again is a recurring theme for this podcast and one of my bugbears, that I think a lot of organisations and intern people within those organizations ‘do’ digital. They do digital because they have to do it. They have gone to the conferences, they’ve read the trade magazines. Consumers and customers are all online. We’ve got to do digital but there’s not really a great foundational knowledge or understanding as to why they’re doing it and that’s easy because there’s any number of organizations that will provide services to do Facebook or email marketing or build websites or apps or those types of things. But it’s the why I think and really understanding goes back to the understanding of why consumers and customers are doing things and what decisions they make and why. And that’s where that data scientist comes into it.

Kristin: Yeah, I agree.

Peter: That wasn’t a good question because you said I agree.

Kristin: I agree and a brand that I really admire is the tourism board, Tourism Australia. They have all the different cities set up and it’s just someone who is a consumer. When I look at it it really inspires me to travel and to visit the rest of the country and frankly I follow them on Instagram. But it’s not necessarily about them trying to make the platforms to adapt them. They’ve adapted themselves to the platform and I think that’s a really good example of how a brand gets it. Instagram is all about images, it’s all about the pictures and you know that’s what is fundamental to how the platform was built and they’ve adapted to it.

And I think that’s crucial as well as brands try different platforms and not to try to adapt to get the platform to adapt to them but to adapt to the platform because effectively that’s why the platform exists, that’s what has made them successful but try not to you know and a lot of brands express themselves in a different way. And I think that’s something that sometimes I notice brands struggle to comprehend that.

Peter: Because most brands or the vast majority of brands were established pre-internet, pre interactivity and pre-personalization and they struggle to go beyond the confines of what have been very successfully put in place over a long long period of time with some brands billions of dollars worth of marketing funds put behind them. But even today I was catching a train to come and have a chat with you and there was an outdoor poster saying something about eBay and I thought hang on, are they reading my phone and are they reading my mind do they know I was coming to see you? Of course, they weren’t. But that’s really the ultimate goal isn’t it? And there are these beacon which can send messages to you in shopping centres and places like that, but that’s really the ultimate. Do you think we’ll ever get there?

Kristin: I hope so. I really hope so.

Peter: Don’t you think that’s a bit intrusive?

Kristin: Yes, it is but it’s funny because the whole concept of privacy comes up. You know over and over again. And where do you draw the line of privacy? But at the same time, I think that there needs to be the education as to what you are giving back to marketers but also both ways. The customer has to actually give the data to someone.

Peter: But why would I do that?

Kristin: And that’s a fair point. I think that needs to be clear. What are you subscribing to and what’s the benefit? Because I’m a little bit more aware now than I was many years ago I’m very cautious of what kind of emails I sign up to because it’s so easy to just give your email address but at the end of the day you simply don’t really know what you’re signing up for. So as the whole concept of privacy and beacons and things like that, there needs to be a lot more transparency about what you’re actually signing up for.

Peter: I’m a big believer that if you actually step out the benefits to consumers or customers of giving their information or allowing their information to be crafted to organisations to give back a more personalised and customised experience for them they’ll say yes. But there’s that fundamental step that is so often missing. It’s like we’re going to take your information and we’re going to give you this experience and it’s like well hang on, that’s not real. It’s like Google retargeting. I looked at a Web site three weeks ago and I’m still getting the message.  How do I turn it off? How do I stop the noise, Kristin? What’s the solution?

Kristin: It’s true. All of us have been victims of a bad retargeting ad and I think there’s still a lot that can be done. I mean a lot has been done but a lot more can be done in order to be a bit more effective. But I think quite often as well in organisations everyone’s still trying to figure out how to use the data I think you know big data was a topic a couple of years ago. I’m sure it still is today but I think nowadays they’ve got people translating data. But now it’s actually making it more meaningful about how to use it a bit more effectively and I think that’s the biggest part that we’re still yet to see happen.

Peter: You have experience with overseas markets as well. You obviously keep a keen eye on what’s happening in Europe, the US of course and Asia. Do you feel that Australia is behind the eight ball when it comes to the foundational understanding of the benefits of digital and what it can offer organisations?

Kristin: To some extent. I think we do a really good job in actually adopting them and people I’ve worked with as well. Everyone’s very keen on trying something new or trying the latest trend or be the market with the trend. But also I think the other piece is the adoption by the everyday consumers. It’s very different. So I think we’re a small market so quite often budgets also restrict it. And you see things happen. We have adopted the mobile phone very quickly and it was a need and I think that’s a difference when things are adopted because people understand why it is simple to use it. But when you’re trying really hard to just sell them on something that they’re not very familiar with I think that’s got to be the hardest part. So I think to answer your question in some instances yes and in some instances no.

Peter: OK. I guess that’s kind of a self-serving question because it’s again yet another one of my bugbears and that is unlike in the US and UK where there is a direct mail heritage, we don’t have that here. So that’s why I think that professionals are struggling here in Australia which is one of the reasons I’m doing this podcast to really start to speak to thought and opinion leaders and successful professionals like yourself to really spread the word as to what you can do with this. It is going back to our initial discussion, it is sales and marketing, matching needs and doing it more effectively whether it’s using data or beacons or mobile technology or mobile marketing so there’s a range of different ways you can do it.

You mentioned that you think Tourism Australia is an organisation that does digital marketing well. What are some other ones you can think of?

Kristin: I recently looked at Lenovo. And I know they’re everywhere. Well there’s that thing though that they’re doing it well. I’ve also been keeping track like they’ve done the whole sales and marketing thing a little bit. They’ve started to do that a lot more and having worked with them during my time at LinkedIn and having read content after that. They’ve been doing that well trying to do the convergence between sales and marketing a lot more and obviously it’s driving them the results

Peter: Can you take us through why you think they are doing it well and why you think it is successful for them?

Kristin: Yes. Many years ago you would see Lenovo was probably not a consideration if you had to think of a laptop, but now when you sort of see the numbers they’re obviously a lot more of a consideration factor in terms of people choosing the brand.

But I think what was interesting was the fact that they realised that they had a sales force and the marketing team also was another opportunity there. And the marketing team realised that by using or working with the sales team they were able to actually see better results. And so there was a lot more training with the sales team directly about for example using LinkedIn more effectively to be able to work with customers. So I’ve seen that loop happen a lot. And that actually was part of the reason why I think that was maybe part of what was driving their success but they were also willing to try different things. So I’ve seen them do the YouTube advertising and they do big brand campaigns and they are bold with all the things and it’s quite nice to see that.

Peter: So it’s not just doing one thing, it’s doing many which is marketing. But I think again we keep going back to this recurring theme: it’s not us and them, marketing and sales, it’s us. So are there any other organisations doing it well? You’ve given us Tourism Australia and Lenovo. eBay is obviously doing a fabulous job here.

Kristin: LinkedIn does it well too and they do it as well from a content marketing perspective and I know it’s another buzz word but it was something that LinkedIn identified a key from our customers at that time that people didn’t really understand how to market on LinkedIn effectively. And that’s what they focused on. How can they educate marketers or agency folks to actually use the platform? And they’ve understood that content marketing was the best way to go because people were learning more about it and it was a way to effectively measure it. And that’s how they went about it.

Peter: I think when we talk about customization and understanding customers really really well you got the big gorilla that’s about to come into Australia which is Amazon. They do it so well and in our previous podcast we spoke to Jim from Allen and Unwin and obviously in the book industry that’s had a huge impact and who knows what impact it’s going to have on the rest of Australia. Do you have any thoughts about that particularly from an eBay point of view?

Kristin: You know, it’s going to be exciting times so I look forward to seeing that happen.

Peter: Stay tuned, says Kristin. OK.

So, final few questions. Where do you think digital marketing will be in the next five years?

Kristin: I hope to say that in the next five years that you have a lot more digital natives entering the workforce that it’s not going to be an us versus them conversation. I hope that it would be a lot more integrated. We would get better at measurement where you see TV advertising combined with search a lot better. I know we do it and many brands are doing it well now. I just hope that it’s a no brainer kind of conversation.

Peter: Right. It’s a bit like it’s a no brainer to do digital now as opposed to five years ago where it was it the discretionary thing.

Final question: What are the top three tips Kristin you would have for other marketers who are interested in succeeding in digital?

Kristin: OK, I actually wrote this one down because I want to make sure it’s a meaningful answer for the guys listening in.

Don’t focus only on the skill set that you have today. Think about skill sets that you want to continuously develop because that’s going to be able to get you through in your career. I think that’s one thing I would definitely say: big skill sets versus job titles. Because I think it’s very easy to get hung up on ‘Head of’, ‘Senior Manager of’, ‘Director of’ but the real value is the skill set.

Peter: So it’s like you’re talking about title inflation.

Kristin: Yeah. And to be honest it’s like saying why people go travelling for a year or a couple of years before they start working or take a break to go travelling. People who travel have a lot more perspective about life and different things and they offer that to their role. And I think it’s the same thing with skill set as learning a different skill set can actually offer a lot of perspective into your day to day. If it’s not directly but it will definitely offer some views. I would say don’t focus on skills set.

Peter: Don’t focus on title, focus on skill set.

Kristin: That’s it, sorry.

And also be open to what else is out there. I think in terms of don’t just limit yourself to digital media a lot and I think before you look at any companies offering like when you look at LinkedIn for example, the offering was not just limited to marketers. It was also an offering to HR professionals and you also have an offering for sales professionals and if you want your focus on the advertising side you were quite limited but you could look at it from a holistic point to help you make organisations benefit from the services that these companies are offering. You can actually look at and be able to branch out a lot more so it offers more potential about what else you can do as a brand. So I would say try to look at the full suite of what is being offered in front of you.

Peter: So, in essence, you’re saying be curious.

Kristin: Right. And the last one is probably a little bit more down my alley and it may not be for everybody but read extensively and don’t just read it all like try to read different things to hear a different perspective. I just finished ‘Hit Refresh’ by Satya Nadella and I would say it was a very interesting read and I really enjoyed just hearing from someone at that level and reading his perspective and his thoughts about what it meant taking over Microsoft at that time and how he’s definitely transformed the brand a lot. So read if you can even if it is just blogs you know and listening to podcasts. Try to immerse yourself in something else as well.

Peter: We’re going to ask you to send through a list of suggested books you have for listeners.

Kristin: I can send you some.

Peter: Please do. We’ll put it up on the show notes. So, Kristin fantastic. Really impressive and interesting. We could speak for another two hours but I don’t think we’d have anyone listening other than ourselves. But one of the reasons I love doing this podcast is that I get to speak to people like you on a regular basis and learn new things as well which I think everyone will when they listen to this. So Kristin, thank you so much for your time.

Kristin: Thank you for having me.

Peter: I hope you enjoyed that discussion as much as I did. I think it was really, really interesting to talk about differences between sales and marketing and where Kristin thinks it’s going to go. And obviously she’s going to be at the vanguard of that given the objectives and the ambition that she has which I think is wonderful and any digital marketer and any corporate marketer no matter what the age or stage is can be inspired and should be inspired by what Kristin has had to say and where she thinks the industry is going.

So thank you again for listening to this episode of The Corporate Digital Marketing Podcast and we look forward to speaking with you again very soon.