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Podcast Transcript

Peter: Hello and welcome to the second episode of the Corporate Digital Marketing Podcast. Thank you for downloading us again. This is the second instalment of what has been a very exciting journey so far and obviously, it’s going to be building as we go. But, today we’re very lucky to have Jodie Sangster who’s CEO of the Association for Data-Driven Marketing and Advertising. Jodie, I’ve known for some time, and she has an excellent reputation in the Australian Digital and Direct Marketing industry. She is a fantastic advocate for her association, there are roughly 600 members of ADMA; it used to be the Australian Direct Marketing Association, but it changed its name four or five years ago. This talk we had with Jodie was fascinating because you’re going to find a lot of insights and get a great understanding of somebody who really traverses everything from the old days if you will of direct mail through to today’s digital marketing, and of course, its half cousin data-driven marketing. So, without further ado let’s go to the interview with Jodie which I’m sure you will find fascinating.

Peter: I would like to welcome Jodie Sangster who is the CEO of ADMA which is the Australian Data-driven Marketing and Advertising Association and that Jodie that evolved from the Australian Direct Marketing Association some time ago?

Jodie: That’s exactly right.

Peter: When was that?

Jodie: Around four or five years we changed our name and changed our focus at the same time. So we were previously the direct marketing association which many people still saw as kind of traditional DM channel so direct mail, telephone marketing, email marketing et cetera. And, because of that and the kind of limitations that were put on that we felt that we needed to change the name and make it much more about data-driven marketing. So, we’re really now channel agnostic it doesn’t really matter what channel you’re communicating through, but at any time that you are kind of using data whether it’s to deliver a better customer experience, to have better insight that’s really where we play a role. So, from five years ago to now obviously there’s been a huge swing to a data-driven approach and organisations that previously would never have seen themselves in data-driven marketing have jumped on board and realised that this is necessary to both understand their customers better and to better deliver to their customers.

Peter: That’s quite prescient of you because I mean five years ago no one had heard of big data and data was not really being spoken about as it is today. So, I think that’s very impressive that ADMA had the foresight to actually make that decision.

Jodie: Yeah look I think the roots of this are in direct marketing, so if you think of the direct marketing channels, it’s all around using people’s contact details and what you knew about them to better serve marketing and advertising. So, the roots of it were there, it’s now that it’s just become much more mainstream, the data that we have access to is far richer, deeper, broader and so much more insight is available. So, it was kind of a natural progression for the association and a natural progression for companies that were trying to be more relevant with their marketing. But, what we have seen now as I said huge investments in data, huge investments in digital and digital transformation and companies really understanding that this needs to be the future approach that they take.

Peter: Okay and its actually very interesting that all of a sudden companies as you say are starting to speak about data where they weren’t really in the past, even though data has been so incredibly important. And, I think because it’s so electronically available where in the past it was like you were looking at telephone books or spreadsheets or something that’s physical it was really discounted. I mean I always say to organisations don’t be intimidated by this thing called big data, if you’re good with an Excel spreadsheet for a start and I realise obviously that it’s all about scale and obviously if you’re talking to Telstra or QANTAS that’s really not going to cut it. But, if you really think about it down to an audience of 1 x 1,000,000 that’s really what it’s all about.

And, I think for a lot of organisations, and we spoke about this in the last episode it’s that a lot of organisations still look at it as an audience of a million. And, it’s like they say if the target market is female grocery buyers with 21/2 kids living here and buying that this is how we’re going to promote to them. Whereas obviously from a direct marketing and even a direct-mail point of view obviously that goes down to a market of one and works from there. So, obviously that’s the ethos that your association has always had to have had, and I guess given one of the disadvantages we have in Australia is that we don’t have that direct marketing ethos like they do in the US and the UK. Do you find that has been a challenge for you since you have been involved with ADMA?

Jodie: Not so much, I mean I do think that as Australians and whether that’s on the business side or the consumer side we are quite conservative in how we use data. And, we are very concerned around both privacy laws, and we’re also concerned about kind of brand or protecting the brand and that’s a good thing. So, we haven’t come from the background they have in the US where it’s very expected data is out there, there’s public data that consumers provide data and that you use that data for marketing. So, we’ve come from a slightly different angle, that said particularly over the last 5 or 6 years you know there is an acceptance on behalf of consumers that there’s a trade-off there, that if I provide my data I will hopefully get a better customer experience and that would be some value to me. And, there is definitely a realisation from the companies’ side that there’s a huge value in data and that they can provide a much more personalised, relevant timely customer experience if they’re using that data. So, I think we’re kind of getting there in terms of the acceptance of it and really it’s kind of at the core of many businesses now.

The other thing I was going to pick up on is the point that you were making, data-driven marketing can be as simple or as complex as you really want to make it. And, I really want to encourage businesses on the smaller end of the scale that it doesn’t have to be the huge investment in CRM and technology to be able to start down the path of data-driven marketing. You can put some really simple measures in place that you are starting to be a little bit more targeted or a bit more relevant to your customers or a little bit more timely you know taking the data that you’ve got and then building it from there. But, often I hear these case studies of huge projects which can be a bit daunting if you’re just starting out.

Peter: There is a stat that I’ve heard that 70% to 80% of CRM implementations fail or are far less successful for the organisation based on the original objectives they had. Do you find that in your experience?

Jodie: Yeah look it’s a difficult one, there’s a lot that goes into it and whether it’s CRM or marketing automation or any other technology that is being invested in by an organisation. The challenge is often that the technology is seen as the solution to the problem, rather than actually thinking through what the company needs technology to do. So, the starting point for all of this really needs to be, what are we trying to achieve here? What are the objectives? What’s our strategy to get there? And, then what technology do we need to invest in to get ourselves there and what do we need that technology to do.

And, that’s quite a long planning process, but if done properly you come out with a really good result, and if you cut corners you can often find yourself with a piece of technology that’s not going to deliver what the company needs. I think probably two or three years ago that was much more prevalent that you saw companies making these big investments and then not coming out with the technology they needed. Now it seems that there is an understanding I need to do this pre-work, I need to understand the strategy, and I need to very carefully plan out what this technology is going to do and build to that so that we can get to a better outcome. So, I think that tide is changing.

Peter: Do you find that that also has to do with what departments and what key stakeholders are involved, for example from my experience and understanding it’s often been the CIO and the CTO who have been driving these types of implementations. And, the CMO and obviously the business development stakeholders as well are only consulted at the end and say, okay here’s a bunch of customer data go for it?

Jodie: Yes, that has been traditionally the way that it’s worked but it will often sit within IT or the CIO or CTO as you said who will be responsible for the technology investment and implementation and that has to change. And, it doesn’t necessarily need to pass over to the marketing or the sales team etc; it needs to be everybody working on it. It’s really the structure of the technology and what that technology is going to do, once that’s been decided its fine to pass it back into the kind of technology field to have it built. But, it’s the input into what is being built that’s the important part that all parties need to play a role in. And, it’s not again about marketing saying well what I need, or sales saying what I need, it’s actually put the customer first you put the customer right in the middle of it.

Peter: What a concept, Jodie.

Jodie: If you put the customer in the middle of it and everyone is building towards delivering to the customer you’re probably going to get an outcome that suits everybody rather than suits one department or another.

Peter: Well, that makes complete sense this customer centricity which is obviously rife throughout your website, and I have spent a lot of time going over your website and your resource centre and looking at the blogs. And, customer centricity is really the buzz phrase, and it really is foundational and fundamental. But I think one of the challenges that a lot of medium to large organisations have is that the process is so entrenched and so embedded and the relationships, the stakeholders, the resellers, the trade partners all these sorts of things. Often the customer, the little old humble customer at the end of the day who basically makes it all worthwhile and pays for everything is kind of left right at the end. Whereas, I think now we’re saying with what you’re saying with the focus of ADMA and this podcast, in fact, is let’s put customer number one, let’s have them at the centre of everything we do and think about and take it from there. And, that has to be a much stronger foundation for making decisions and building programs. But, I guess the frustration that a lot of perhaps CEOs have is that it often is not translating into numbers, do you find that or is it something that you think that again that the tide is turning?

Jodie: Look I think there is a couple of things in what you’ve mentioned there.

Peter: It was a long sentence, I apologise.

Jodie: There’s a will on behalf of most companies that they want set the customer at the centre of what they do, but it’s so much easier said than done. Because that’s not the way that businesses have been structured, it’s been very product centric and the whole organisation is often built around or structured around delivering a product out to market, and it is not structured around the customer. So, making that transition is really difficult because it does require a whole restructure of your company, a refocus on what’s important and what’s being measured et cetera, it really is quite a big transformation to get to do that. I do think it’s easier said than done; the other point is that if you really put the customer at the centre, you have to make some difficult decisions. And, at the end of the day companies are there to make money, and if you put the customer at the centre for example if there’s a subscription service and you can see that they could save money by going down to the next level down in their subscription is the company going to be proactive to help the customer to do that and to pay less. And, that’s quite a different way of doing business and it does take some nerve for an organisation to truly say, no we are going to put the customer first, and we are going to take a revenue hit in some areas to make sure that that customer is getting the experience that they need. So, I think there’s many, many levers here that are making it much more difficult to really move to a customer centric approach rather than just saying that’s the right thing to do.

Peter: Well, do you think it’s worthwhile I mean is it all too hard, why don’t organisations or perhaps organisations are saying to you, Jodie great theory, love the direction I get it, but it’s all too hard we’re just going to stick to doing what we’ve always done?

Jodie: I think it depends on the company, to be honest with you it depends on so many factors. If you are a kind of commodity based, you’ve got a quick sell, cheap product, all you’re trying to do is push that out into the market, and you’re really reliant on volume sales is customer experience the most important thing, and the answer is probably going to be no. If on the other hand you’re kind of a service based industry and you’ve got competitors in your field who are offering a better customer experience than you, then yes customer experience is going to be really important. And, there is going to be a pain point moving yourself from product to customer, but it’s going to have to be done because your competitors are doing it anyway.

So, I don’t want to say that focusing on customer experience is right for every single business because it’s not. But anything where you’re actually trying to build an ongoing relationship with a customer you’re wanting them to come back time and time again it’s going to become increasingly more important as we move forward. And the other thing I do truly believe, and this is slightly off subject, but I do think it’s becoming more and more important is consumers want to deal with ethical companies, so they want to deal with companies who are doing the right thing. Whether it’s with them themselves, whether it’s with their customer data or even out there in the world, consumers are leaning towards companies that they feel are doing the right thing.

Peter: Okay and I guess that also comes back to the organisation communicating that to customers as well, it’s one thing to do the right thing and obviously we marketers would fail if we’re being very modest and not going out there and really self-promoting. And, I guess that’s part of the Australian ethos as well as opposed to the American ethos where promotion and being a winner and getting out there and being loud and proud is very important. Australians are naturally less inclined to be self-promoters and less likely to embrace people and organisations that are. I guess there is a bit of a balance there though isn’t there?

Jodie: There is a balance, and again it can’t just be self-promotion it’s got to be kind of promotion that’s of interest to the customer, so if its seen too much as being a push of the company, then consumers going to be questioning why is that communication relevant to me. Whereas if they are tying it back to what’s of interest to the customer, then it’s more likely that that message is going to be well received.

Peter: Okay, so look you have I think is it, 600 members, now which is wonderful. Tell me what are some of the organisations, whether they’re your members or not or whether they’re in Australia or overseas. What are the organisations that you feel are doing it well and some examples of programs or campaigns that really demonstrate how well they’re doing?

Jodie: Look I think it for me comes down to; there are different degrees by the way. So, I think the first thing is organisations that have the basics right. And, this is probably my biggest piece of advice for companies is get the basics right before you start trying to do the really impressive or the big wow campaigns or data-driven approaches. So, there are many companies that are now starting to have the basics right i.e. when you go to that company you get the service that you expect, you can actually do what you’ve gone there to do whether it’s online or instore or whatever it may be. And, you’re never going to leave going wow that was amazing, but you leave going I’ve got exactly what I wanted, and I feel satisfied with the company that I’ve dealt with. And, I feel like many companies now are starting to get that piece right. The banks aren’t bad that they’re investing heavily in data-driven approach so that they can make their customers feel as though, all right I’ve gone to the bank, I’m trying to do online banking, I’m trying to find out about a product or a service and I’m getting the information that I need. I think the airlines are doing quite well, so I would say Qantas has invested heavily in their data and their customer experience is actually very good. And, I do believe I mean Qantas for me is one that stands out as not only having the basics right, but they do have that next level up right as well. I was on my way to the airport about two months ago late as usual, got to the airport was going through security as I’m sure my flight was taking off. And, I received a phone call from Qantas saying we can see you’re at the airport you have checked in on the app, we can see you’re here but you’ve missed the flight so don’t worry we have put you onto the next one.

And, that is when data-driven marketing becomes really powerful because that’s not them just trying to sell me something that’s them providing me a service to help me to do something that I will then go and tell other people about, and that’s where data-driven marketing becomes really powerful.

Westpac have done the same, so I’ve had messages from Westpac at the airport saying I can see you’re at the international terminal you’re going overseas and if you would like your credit card to work overseas make sure you phone us before you leave. That for me is hugely beneficial, but also good for them because they can do more business using my credit card when I’m over in the US. So, there are some companies who are really embracing this and embracing it well.

Peter: Well, that’s great; you and I are in the data-driven marketing business, and we’re aware of it, and we like it, and we recognise companies that are doing it well. What if I’m someone who is not in this industry who is not connected to it and we feel we get a phone call we get a text message it’s like really Qantas is calling me or Westpac is calling me, that’s really intrusive, I never gave them permission to do so. You may have a year ago, and I get it they’re providing a great service but it like does feel that some people would be resentful of that and they feel it’s intrusive and it’s invading their privacy.

Jodie: I think it depends on the trade off, it depends on the value of that communication to the customer, and this is where brands need to be careful but also thinking in advance as to how that’s going to be received. You know I hear all the time of companies saying I don’t know where that line is between me providing a service to my customers and then me stepping over into the creepy factor where consumers are saying well hold on a second I didn’t give you permission to do that, and I think you’ve gone a little bit too far. But, at the end of the day, we’re all consumers, and we all can provide some input and thought around that conversation as to whether you would be happy to receive that communication, and would you feel that it crossed the line, and if the answer is yes then really brands should not be doing it.

We’ve got a big project on at the moment around transparency for consumers, and I truly believe that businesses need to do more to allow consumers to have the visibility of what is going to happen to their data. And, those companies that do provide that visibility and do provide that transparency are going to be the ones that win into the future. And, we’ve just launched an organisation called Data Governance Australia for that exact reason. So, that companies that sign up to the standards which are all around ethical use of data transparency etcetera, they can have a trust mark to show yep I as an organisation take this really seriously and are willing to go above and beyond in terms of how we protect consumers data. And, I truly think it’s going to be a big business differentiator into the future.

Peter: Something else I wanted to ask you along the lines of organisations that are doing, well you mentioned a couple of big ones Qantas and Westpac. Do you know of any smaller organisations that they don’t necessarily have to be household names that are doing data-driven marketing well? And, in terms of I guess, it’s easier when you’re a smaller organisation obviously as we mentioned earlier in the talk about you don’t have X million customers, let’s say you’ve got a hundred or 500 or 1000 customers it’s easier to actually connect with them and manage their expectations. Do you know of many or any organisations, smaller organisations that are doing it well also?

Jodie: There are so many small organisations doing well, and the reason they’re doing well is because they’ve kept it simple. I bought, and I’m wracking my brains for the name of the company because I actually want to tell the name because I was so impressed with the service they provided. I bought some leather conditioner the other day, very small company the customer service was excellent, purchased the product, the communications I got back after I purchased were brilliant, and the whole way through the sales process was amazing. And, I actually emailed at the last point they sent an email saying hope you got the product and that you enjoy it and any feedback, please let us know. And, I did, I emailed back and said I just wanted to let you know I’ve had a wonderful customer experience and the owner of the company then emailed back and said thank you so much. And, that to me is again it’s data-driven marketing, they’ve used an automated process all the way through but it felt personalised. And, at the point that I have interacted and said actually that was really good or bad whatever the case may be, somebody, a human has come back to me and said great. And, whether they’re saying thank you for pointing that out or whether they’re trying to resolve a problem it’s that human contact at the point that it’s needed that really made such a difference. So, I think there are many many companies out there that are doing a great job, but it is about keeping it simple and keeping it personalised.

Peter: And, I also think it’s having a mindset to actually try and get that gold those types of testimonials from people like yourself to say, well you know what I had a great experience, you over deliver, you completely solved my problem and you over delivered with the service. For example, we had some new business cards printed about a month ago, and there are a few little things that went wrong, and we called them up, and they were very apologetic, and they completely over delivered on what we wanted, and it was a fantastic result in the end and I was delighted. And, I was actually I paid my bill on time etc. etc. and there was nothing; they didn’t ask me to leave a review on Google or on a Facebook page or anything like that. I actually sought out their Google page a Google business page and left a review for them because I was so impressed. And, I think that they, that was me again because I’m focussed on this sort of thing I really want to reward organisations that are doing a good job. But, I think a lot of people couldn’t be bothered because it is like they are not prompted to do so, but they would if they actually went out there and asked. So, I think actually getting out there and taking, I say to my clients all the time that it’s like testimonials that might seem a bit hokey but I think they’re so important. It’s almost like these are the people who have put their money where your mouth is, it’s like everyone we know you’re out there trying to sell a product or service and that’s fine but it’s like I think that’s a very important thing. Ironically even during this talk I actually had a text message from Telstra, talking about large organisations, our internet at home was having a few emotional issues. And, I called up, and they were fantastic and got it fixed, and they just sent a text message to me, literally five minutes ago saying, hi its John from Telstra just wanted to check that you’re happy with the result. Small thing, automated as you say Jodie, but it’s better than not doing it which a lot of organisations do.

Jodie: Yes, absolutely and I’ll tell you another one because I do like mentioning companies that are doing it well. I just recently signed up to Marley Spoon because I’m lazy and I like my food delivered for me. But, again great customer experience, the signup process was great, and I received an email that I wasn’t expecting and I immediately emailed back and said I’m not sure what this email is and within five minutes someone was on the phone explaining what the email was. And, that to me again is just a seamless approach that says at any point that there’s going to be a challenge or a difficulty somebody is empowered to step in and sort the problem out. So, it can be done, and it doesn’t need always, I mean at some point when you’ve got a volume of customers, yes you are going to need the investment in technologies et cetera, but it doesn’t always have to start there. You can start simple and build up to that.

Peter: It starts with the desire to actually provide a great customer experience.

Jodie: That’s right.

Peter: Now let me ask you the social media thing, as being in the industry I am involved in providing social media services for organisations. And there was huge interest in social media as you know about four or five years ago, and it was the new thing, and we’ve got to have Facebook and this Instagram and Twitter and Snapchat when they were launched. And, then a lot of the hard heads in organisations were saying, hang on we’re spending all this money where is the ROI? And, quite frankly in isolation it’s a valid question, you can only put in your report, oh we’ve got X thousand likes and Y thousand shares and this number of retweets and those sorts of things. What’s your opinion as to how social media can and should fit in with data-driven marketing, and most importantly helping organisations to achieve greater customer centricity and bottom-line results?

Jodie: So, I think the reason that social media started in that position was that people saw social media as a discrete or separate strategy or channel that they were using, and it wasn’t seen as part of the marketing mix. So, social media by itself can be quite difficult to pin a return on investment on because it needs to be used in conjunction with other channels to be able to deliver that return. But, I think that’s why initially it was kind of there was a huge peak of people jumping on social media and then people became a bit disillusioned as I said, but I don’t understand the role of it here. That has now changed, so the role of social media is incredibly important because it is a direct connection with your customers and gives you the ability to have that kind of two-way conversation and a really authentic voice for your brand.

For social media though to have a return on investment you need to have an objective, and generally, now it will be content marketing or engagement, but it needs to lead to a bottom-line result. So, the objectives need to be set clearly upfront, you need to know the role that social media is playing in connecting you with your customers. But, what are you actually trying to drive that customer to do through social media and understanding back at the beginning can mean you can put a very comprehensive strategy in place to take somebody from engaging on social media to making a purchase. And, that’s what needs to happen before jumping on social media. So, it’s no longer about likes, because likes, as we know, is a level of engagement but engagement doesn’t necessarily equal return, so that next step now needs to be taken by companies to say what is the return that’s being made on it. I should mention this is a challenge for most companies, so if anyone is having that challenge they’re not alone. And, we’re about to in about two weeks’ time put out a new paper on how to measure content marketing which obviously is highly driven by social media, and how to truly measure the return on investment for content marketing. And, that will help people to take it from engagement likes, over to a true return.

Peter: Is that going to be readily available or is that a report you’re selling?

Jodie: Yeah absolutely, no that will be readily available and just available through the website.

Peter: Okay well, I’ll put that on the show notes as well because I think that’s something that people will be fascinated with. So, getting towards the end of our chat here. So, if I’m a marketer working in a medium to large organisation, and I’m listening to this, and I’m thinking, okay I understand what you’re saying, you’ve mentioned before getting the basics right that’s very very important, I’ve got to deliver a certain result be it turnover or new customers, customer satisfaction there’s a whole range of different metrics that any of them should have to deliver. What would your advice be to the corporate marketer listening to this podcast saying, okay I see that digital is such a powerful enabler and facilitator of customer engagement how can I use it effectively? Because I see one of my great bugbears and it’s for a lot of people I speak to is the same is that people are very good at doing stuff, like building websites, sending emails, building apps, those types of things. But, they kind of missed that final customer relevance, customer engagement point as to doing it in a way to help to achieve a result, a greater result for customers and intern a greater result for the organisation. So, what are the top tips you would have for the corporate marketers listening to this?

Jodie: I think the first thing is to be really clear about your objectives going in. So, what is it that you are trying to achieve and what is it that the business has asked you to do, because starting with your endpoint is the easiest way to do it so that you can keep yourself focused on delivering to those. So, first is objective, second is then developing a strategy around those objectives, and that’s the part that’s often missed out. So, companies and marketers jump straight into the tactics of trying to do things without actually having a clear strategy around what you’re trying to do and how it’s going to go about that why, there’s a belief that that strategy is going to deliver the results needed.

So, strategy really critically important. The third step is people, and this is often where it falls down. So, as much as the strategy may be great, have you actually got the team of people internally to be able to do that, and if the answer is no, then your strategy is going to fail. We’re seeing a huge skills gap at the moment, so often companies will come up with a great approach but then don’t have the people internally to be able to deliver on that, and that is a big, big challenge. So, key members weren’t making sure the team members know or have the knowledge or the skills or the expertise to be able to deliver on that strategy, critically important. And, then it’s about having the measures in place so as you’re going through this process and you put in place your digital strategy what are the measures that you’re going to be looking at on an ongoing basis to know whether your strategy’s working or not. And, constantly monitoring those measures to see whether it is working and adjusting the strategy as and when required would be the last part.

The other thing I would really really recommend here is digital is vast, and it’s very hard to have all of the knowledge that you need across all digital products, channels etcetera its really difficult. So, it is both about having a broad knowledge which means you’ve got a broad but shallow knowledge across all of the digital assets that you need the knowledge across, and then having team members that have the deep knowledge in the areas that you need. So, recruiting a team that you can put together a little bit like a jigsaw puzzle that has the required skills and not everyone’s going to have all of those skills. So, I think that’s quite important.

Peter: That’s excellent advice, and actually, it leads into you were talking about the skills gap and having people with deep knowledge. One of the things that’s fascinating because obviously, the ADMA runs many digital courses what are the most popular ones at the moment?

Jodie: Well, it changes actually over time. So, our most popular course had always been copywriting strangely, but if you’re looking in the digital areas, digital marketing essentials has been really popular and the two that have just recently every time it’s sold out is marketing automation is one, and journey mapping is the other. So, both of those are quite new skills, particularly marketing automation, we haven’t got enough people with those skills yet in Australia we need more. And, we also need more people going through those programs because if we’ve got the skills in marketing automation and journey mapping that technology, marketing automation technology is so so powerful that unless you’ve got the skilled people to use it obviously it can’t work like it should do.

Peter: So, anyone who’s out there listening do an ADMA course on marketing automation, but be quick because it fills up very quickly. So, Jodie I always ask the guests where do you see digital marketing or data-driven marketing, where do you think it will be in five years’ time?

Jodie: I think many organisations at the moment are on the first steps of their journey of becoming a true data-driven marketing organisation. And, so look I think in the next five years we’re going to see both much more investment in data-driven marketing and many more companies getting to that stage of being truly proficient and delivering a kind of personalised one-to-one customer experience. So, I think the investments going in the right direction, the couple of things to watch out for one is skills. And, I know I’ve mentioned this before, but I am seeing as we’re going down this path at such a rapid speed and so many new technologies are coming out we as marketers are not keeping pace. And, that’s both graduates coming out of university and people who have been in the marketing industry for a while. So, I think skills is a key area for us to focus on, and I picked up a really nice phrase from Chris Savage who you may know has been in the industry for many many years, and he talks about doing nanodegrees, and I absolutely agree with this. It’s like every day we should be doing a nanodegree in something to do with digital marketing to keep ourselves a little bit ahead of the game and make sure that we understand what’s coming up and around the corner. And, my big tip of what’s coming up I know there’s so much focus on these technologies such as virtual reality or AI and that sort of thing. But, I truly believe that voice, voice activated, and voice activation is going to be the next big thing. So, the Siri’s and the Alexa’s etcetera which is just starting now, but I do think that’s going to be the next big trend that companies are going to have to get their heads around.

Peter: Fantastic. Well, Jodie, I think people have done a nanodegree by just listening to you for the last half hour, or so it’s been excellent, excellent content thank you so much for the time you’ve taken to talk to us today. And, we will as I say put a lot of the links that you talked about, that report that’s coming out in the next couple weeks we’ll put that on the show notes so people can easily download it and get to you. And, obviously a link to your LinkedIn profile and see what an amazing achiever you are and the sorts of things you are doing for the Australian industry. So, thank you so much for your time today, and we will speak to you again very soon hopefully.

Jodie: Thank you very much thanks for having me.

Peter: Thanks, Jodie all the best.

Well, I’m sure you will have found that as fascinating to listen to as it was for me to actually have a discussion with Jodie, and always a good day when you learn something and I learnt several new things from Jodie in that discussion, and I’m sure you will have as well. Don’t forget to go to our show notes at tickyes.com/podcast where we will have a link to both the transcript of the interview we had with Jodie and several of the links that were mentioned during that interview. So, thank you very much for joining in today it was fantastic another great episode of the corporate digital marketing podcast, and we look forward to speaking with you again soon. Bye.